.GM says new Volt could get 230 mpg in city driving
WARREN, Mich. (AP) - General Motors said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car could get 230 mpg in city driving, making it the first American vehicle to achieve triple-digit fuel economy if that figure is confirmed by federal regulators.
But when the four-door family sedan hits showrooms late next year, its efficiency will come with a steep sticker price: $40,000.
Still, the Volt's fuel efficiency would be four times more than the popular Toyota Prius hybrid, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S.
Most automakers are working on similar designs, but GM would offer the first mainstream plug-in with the Volt, which seats four and was introduced at the 2007 Detroit auto show.
The Volt will join a growing fleet of cars and trucks powered by systems other than internal combustion engines.
Unlike the Prius and other traditional hybrids, the Volt is powered by an electric motor and a battery pack with a 40-mile range. After that, a small internal combustion engine kicks in to generate electricity for a total range of 300 miles. The battery pack can be recharged from a standard home outlet.
Hybrids use a small internal combustion engine combined with a high-powered battery to boost fuel efficiency. Toyota's Prius—which starts at about $22,000—gets 51 mpg in the city and 48 mpg on the highway.
The number of all-electric vehicles available to U.S. consumers remains limited. The Tesla Roadster, a high-end sports car with a range of 224 miles, is perhaps the best known. But its $100,000-plus price tag keeps it out of reach of all but the wealthiest drivers.
The company is working on an electric family sedan that will be priced considerably less.
Nissan Motor Co. unveiled its first electric car, the Leaf, earlier this month. Nissan said the vehicle will go on sale in Japan, the U.S. and Europe next year.
General Motors Co. is touting the 230 mpg figure following early tests that used draft guidelines from the Environmental Protection Agency for calculating the mileage of extended-range electric vehicles.
The EPA guidelines, developed with help from automakers, figure that cars such as the Volt will travel more on straight electricity in the city than on the highway. If drivers operate the Volt for less than 40 miles, in theory they could do so without using a drop of gasoline.
Highway mileage estimates for the Volt based on the EPA's methodology have yet to be released.
"We are confident the highway (mileage) will be a triple-digit," GM CEO Fritz Henderson said.
The EPA conducts testing to determine the mileage posted on new car stickers. The agency said in a statement Tuesday that it has not tested a Volt "and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM."
The EPA is working with the Society of Automotive Engineers and state and federal officials to develop testing procedures to measure the fuel efficiency of advanced vehicles, according to a draft outline of the proposal obtained by The Associated Press.
The plan could be released later this year.
It was not immediately clear how GM reached the 230 mpg in city driving, but industry officials estimated the automaker's calculation took into consideration the Volt traveling 40 miles on the electric battery and then achieving about 50 mpg when the engine kicked in.
Although Henderson would not give details on pricing, the first-generation Volt is expected to cost nearly $40,000, making it cost-prohibitive to many people even if gasoline returns to $4 per gallon.
The price of the sporty-looking sedan is expected to drop with future generations of the Volt, but GM has said government tax credits of up to $7,500 and the savings on fuel could make it more affordable, especially at 230 mpg.
"We get a little cautious about trying to forecast what fuel prices will do," said Tony Posawatz, GM's vehicle line director for the Volt. "We achieved this number, and if fuel prices go up, it certainly does get more attractive even in the near-term generation."
The mileage figure could vary as the guidelines are refined and the Volt gets further along in the manufacturing process, Posawatz said.
Chrysler Group, Ford Motor Co. and Daimler AG are all developing plug-ins and electric cars, and Toyota Motor Corp. is working on a plug-in version of its gas-electric hybrid system.
GM has produced about 30 Volts so far and is making 10 a week, Henderson said during a presentation at the company's technical center in the Detroit suburb of Warren.
Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at about 5 cents per kilowatt hour.
GM is nearly halfway through building about 80 Volts that will look and behave like the production model, and testing is running on schedule, Posawatz said.
Two critical areas—battery life and the electronic switching between battery and engine power—are still being refined, but the car is on schedule to reach showrooms late in 2010, he said.
GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said, as well as testing battery performance in extremely hot and cold climates.
"We're further along, but we're still quite a ways from home," he said. "We're developing quite a knowledge base on all this stuff. Our confidence is growing."
The other area of new technology, switching between battery and engine power, is proceeding well, he said, with engineers just fine-tuning the operations.
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said.
GM also is finishing work on the power cord, which will be durable enough that it can survive being run over by the car. The Volt, he said, will have software on board so it can be programmed to begin and end charging during off-peak electrical use hours.
It will be easy for future Volt owners living in rural and suburban areas to plug in their cars at night, but even Henderson recognized the challenge urban, apartment dwellers, or those who park their cars on the street might have recharging the Volt. There could eventually be charging stations set up by a third-party to meet such a demand, Henderson said.
Breitbart
Sweet vindication. I had this design ten years ago, I was going to build it out of a VW Bug, but they laughed and said it impossible...small minds..
And 40K my ass, once the parts, electric motors generators, and power connectors become standard, you could build it for under 10K, and make 5K in profit
But when the four-door family sedan hits showrooms late next year, its efficiency will come with a steep sticker price: $40,000.
Still, the Volt's fuel efficiency would be four times more than the popular Toyota Prius hybrid, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S.
Most automakers are working on similar designs, but GM would offer the first mainstream plug-in with the Volt, which seats four and was introduced at the 2007 Detroit auto show.
The Volt will join a growing fleet of cars and trucks powered by systems other than internal combustion engines.
Unlike the Prius and other traditional hybrids, the Volt is powered by an electric motor and a battery pack with a 40-mile range. After that, a small internal combustion engine kicks in to generate electricity for a total range of 300 miles. The battery pack can be recharged from a standard home outlet.
Hybrids use a small internal combustion engine combined with a high-powered battery to boost fuel efficiency. Toyota's Prius—which starts at about $22,000—gets 51 mpg in the city and 48 mpg on the highway.
The number of all-electric vehicles available to U.S. consumers remains limited. The Tesla Roadster, a high-end sports car with a range of 224 miles, is perhaps the best known. But its $100,000-plus price tag keeps it out of reach of all but the wealthiest drivers.
The company is working on an electric family sedan that will be priced considerably less.
Nissan Motor Co. unveiled its first electric car, the Leaf, earlier this month. Nissan said the vehicle will go on sale in Japan, the U.S. and Europe next year.
General Motors Co. is touting the 230 mpg figure following early tests that used draft guidelines from the Environmental Protection Agency for calculating the mileage of extended-range electric vehicles.
The EPA guidelines, developed with help from automakers, figure that cars such as the Volt will travel more on straight electricity in the city than on the highway. If drivers operate the Volt for less than 40 miles, in theory they could do so without using a drop of gasoline.
Highway mileage estimates for the Volt based on the EPA's methodology have yet to be released.
"We are confident the highway (mileage) will be a triple-digit," GM CEO Fritz Henderson said.
The EPA conducts testing to determine the mileage posted on new car stickers. The agency said in a statement Tuesday that it has not tested a Volt "and therefore cannot confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM."
The EPA is working with the Society of Automotive Engineers and state and federal officials to develop testing procedures to measure the fuel efficiency of advanced vehicles, according to a draft outline of the proposal obtained by The Associated Press.
The plan could be released later this year.
It was not immediately clear how GM reached the 230 mpg in city driving, but industry officials estimated the automaker's calculation took into consideration the Volt traveling 40 miles on the electric battery and then achieving about 50 mpg when the engine kicked in.
Although Henderson would not give details on pricing, the first-generation Volt is expected to cost nearly $40,000, making it cost-prohibitive to many people even if gasoline returns to $4 per gallon.
The price of the sporty-looking sedan is expected to drop with future generations of the Volt, but GM has said government tax credits of up to $7,500 and the savings on fuel could make it more affordable, especially at 230 mpg.
"We get a little cautious about trying to forecast what fuel prices will do," said Tony Posawatz, GM's vehicle line director for the Volt. "We achieved this number, and if fuel prices go up, it certainly does get more attractive even in the near-term generation."
The mileage figure could vary as the guidelines are refined and the Volt gets further along in the manufacturing process, Posawatz said.
Chrysler Group, Ford Motor Co. and Daimler AG are all developing plug-ins and electric cars, and Toyota Motor Corp. is working on a plug-in version of its gas-electric hybrid system.
GM has produced about 30 Volts so far and is making 10 a week, Henderson said during a presentation at the company's technical center in the Detroit suburb of Warren.
Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at about 5 cents per kilowatt hour.
GM is nearly halfway through building about 80 Volts that will look and behave like the production model, and testing is running on schedule, Posawatz said.
Two critical areas—battery life and the electronic switching between battery and engine power—are still being refined, but the car is on schedule to reach showrooms late in 2010, he said.
GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said, as well as testing battery performance in extremely hot and cold climates.
"We're further along, but we're still quite a ways from home," he said. "We're developing quite a knowledge base on all this stuff. Our confidence is growing."
The other area of new technology, switching between battery and engine power, is proceeding well, he said, with engineers just fine-tuning the operations.
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said.
GM also is finishing work on the power cord, which will be durable enough that it can survive being run over by the car. The Volt, he said, will have software on board so it can be programmed to begin and end charging during off-peak electrical use hours.
It will be easy for future Volt owners living in rural and suburban areas to plug in their cars at night, but even Henderson recognized the challenge urban, apartment dwellers, or those who park their cars on the street might have recharging the Volt. There could eventually be charging stations set up by a third-party to meet such a demand, Henderson said.
Breitbart
Sweet vindication. I had this design ten years ago, I was going to build it out of a VW Bug, but they laughed and said it impossible...small minds..
And 40K my ass, once the parts, electric motors generators, and power connectors become standard, you could build it for under 10K, and make 5K in profit
posted by madtom at 6:01 PM
45 Comments:
How long does it take to go 239 miles since the batteries will only take you 40 miles (and VERY slowly on the last 10 of those 40 without the gas engine taking over)? I think the best case charge takes 4 hours, so maybe we need a new category MPD-- miles per day?
The cost of batteries, elec, battery replacement means that gas will have to go over $4 a barrel for one to 'save' money by driving this expensive piece of shit-and then only 40 MPD-- at least that was what GM was saying a year ago.
Bull shit, the battery goes 40 miles, the gallon goes the other 180, you can forget most of that battery and still get impressive mpg, and it scales all the way up, trains and aircraft carriers, so trucks should be no problem.
No, it doesn't. Unless you believe the 4 cylinder gas engine gets 180 MPG? If that were true, why bother with the batteries? Read up--- the thing gets 220 MPG, supposedly, only in the first 40 miles. If they had used the same formula to calculate mpg for the volt as they use for hybrids, you get a very expensive 48 MPG. I have read that some all electric car designers are raising hell about the way the EPA is rigging the numbers in GM'
s favor. Like most things these days, it's a scam. You have far too high of an opinion on current battery tech and efficiency.
4 cly? batteries?
Why do you need a 4 banger all you need is a 25 hp generator, that can be a 3cly, and they can get like 1.5 hours on a gallon at 3/4 loads....that's just your standard home depot out of a box generator...at 70 mph your getting like 105 mpg.
The power management software, that's the tricky part.
You can't power a car with a 25 hp motor. A go kart--maybe. You could charge it in 24 hours with a generator like you refer to--- but why would you bother when it will only take you 30 miles or so before the onboard motor kicks in?
You could buy the VW diesel that gets 52mpg, drive it 350,000 miles, and still come off saving money had you bought this Volt pc of crap. That's assuming you never have to replace the batteries in the thing and you actually get the 200 plus mpg that they are trying to scam us with. This is going to be for people with more money than sense who are trying to 'save the polar bears' and feel superior. It is a huge loser that we, the taxpayer, will get to continue subsidizizing.
In a recent independent test cycle at the Millbrook Proving Ground in the UK, a Wrightbus Gemini 2 HEV achieved the best results for fuel consumption and CO2 emissions ever recorded from a double deck vehicle: 10 mpg UK (8.3 mpg US, 28 L/100km).
The test was part of the Wrightbus Product Development team’s collaboration with Queens University Belfast and key component suppliers including Siemens, Valence Technology and Ford. The series hybrid-electric drive system also uses an optimized engine management program developed by Revolve Technologies. Revolve Technologies was formerly the UK-based Roush Technologies Limited. An investor group acquired Roush Technologies from its US parent late in 2007, and changed the name to Revolve in December 2008.
GC
So say you.
Redemption is a sweet thing.
My feelings exactly
Read for yourself, Google
That is what is wrong with the world today-- illogical assumptions and avoidance of facts to meet ones fantasies. Your 'redemption' article says the vehicles are zero emission. In fact, an electiric car would likely result in greater CO2 emissions because the majority of US elec is coal generated.That's why it's cheap.
It says the Volt, if used ONLY for the average commute would be the most economical vehicle ever made. Wrong. First, who is going to only drive the thing 20 to 30 miles per day? Facts show that people who drive the most fuel efficient cars drive them more, using almost as much--if not more-- fuel than the did in their previous, less efficient cars. That is true for Prius drivers.
Then, do the math. You can get a VW diesel for 18,000. That means you save 22,000 over a volt. You can buy enough diesel with the savings (assuming 3 dollar a gallon) so that the vw will take you 400,000 miles befgore you are out as much as you would be with the difference in initial purchase of a Volt. Forget about battery replacement costs, elec costs, repairs, gasoline costs, etc which make it even more of a no brainer. It is a loser even if you take their best case scenario and ignore the fact that people are going to drive the things as much or more than the did their previous cars and get overall lower MPG than does the vw diesel!
As for the big bus getting 8 mpg--- woo hoo! Compared to what over a diesel or NG engine and at what cost? Elec vehicles that make sense are at least a decade away and I think a lot further away than that.
Google it yourself? I did. This guy didn't use the VW as an example, so his numbers aren't the same, but he reached the same conclusion even though he buys some of the ridiculous claims that I dismiss cuz I can see through the lies. I grew up before the environmentalist religion took over education.
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08/gms_volt_offers_amazing_mileage_but_at_what_cost.php
By the way, a found that diesel only double decker buses get between 7 and 14 mpg, which is believable. A fully loaded semi gets around 7 to 8, so this 'breakthrough' is more bullshit. The 'best ever' must be referring to the direct emissions without regard for how the elect is generated. It's electric so there are NO emissions, right?
Before sitting down to write this story, I asked a professional bus driver about the average fuel consumption for such a vehicle. As it turns out, a standard Agora bus on the roads of any European city burns about 60 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers, which equates to about 4 mpg. So the claim from British company that it can squeeze 10 mpg Imperial (8 mpg US, 29 l/100km) comes as a very welcome surprise.
This bus was created by Revolve Technologies and supplied to Wrightbus, a company that already has 20 hybrid Gemini 2 HEV buses (traditional double-deckers no less!) servicing London. However, the new model goes a step further and uses a 2.4-liter diesel engine sourced from the Ford Transit to work as a generator and make the ensemble a series hybrid. The engine adapts itself to driving conditions – generating more output when the bus needs more electric power – thanks to advanced electronics that predict load and speed changes in advance. Find the full press release after the jump.
ABG
This sounds much more believable, and in line with what I know to be the case...
I don't know why you go off on the environmentalist, like only green loons advocate.
Just think that if we all went diesel there would not be the capacity, and you would be competing with your food. Do we sell fuel to the farmer and trucker, or too the soccer mom? Who do you think would win...You can apply the exact same argument against more diesel that you can against bio-fuel. it competes for your food dollar.
You do realize the threat to the over land trucking industry.
If someone were to build a fleet of series trucks that get 15mpg, they would put all the other companies out of business..
What is average fuel mileage for semi trucks in the U.S.A.?
a: depending on the truck, the weight of cargo etc . the fuel milage can be anywhere from 4 mpg to about 9 mpg
link
I read other sources that gave a different mpg for double decker buses, but even if we accept this version, the thing is not cost efficient by comparison. Not even close.
Your point about diesel makes no sense. Biodiesel doesn't work because the oil from which diesel is derived is cheaper by far. Only subsidies make it profitable, and that too is a scam. 'Refiners' sell product to one another and collect the taxpayer money without producing one damn thing. I know that for a fact because there is one less than two miles from here that is being assailed for taking county tax money to build, then haven't hired more than two people or produced one taxable gallon. But they do get fed subsidies by buying from another producer and then reselling it!
Diesel can be refined from low grade crude which we still have in some abundance. It takes less energy to refine. It costs more or the same because of the fed mandate to remove all the sulfur. Before that kicked in, diesel was usually 15 to 20 % cheaper. But I don't care if it's diesel or gasoline, though diesel is more efficient. I protest because this is one more instance where government is perverting the market in the name of do good nonsense and making us pay for it. Biodiesel, ethanol, electric driven, wind power, solar poser........all scams. When oil REALLY is rare, the market will find a cheaper alternative. When electric vehicles are as good or better and cheaper to operate, call me and I will be on board. Until then, stay out of my pocket and quit borrowing money from my children and grandchildren to support mindless feel good save the globe circle jerks.
Markets?? What markets, you mean the one run by Saudi cartels. Is that the market you want us to plan our futures on?
So now your with the sulfur lobby. You like the sulfur, you like the smog and the smell all of it and your campaigning to bring it back?
I drove diesel pickup trucks for 20 years with the sulphur in it and it has been banned for 5years--- I haven't noticed the difference, other than price and lower fuel mileage, have you?
The enviros have as much to do with perverting the oil market domestically as do the Saudis. In FLA you should know that as well as anyone. Even with the asudis, oil is still by FAR the cheapest energy followed closely by nuclear--- and coal, which is the cheapest of all and most plentiful in the US--- and who is keeping that off the market? I'm all for domestic sources. NG and oil first. Use them, the cheapest first and keep them as clean as is reasonably possible. Then go nuclear and your precious electric cars that may have actually advanced to the point they make sense and keep us competitive. Why don't we do that? Right now they make no sense and are contributing to what ails us.
I had a Toyota sr5 diesel truck for years, one of the best trucks I ever owned, it died in an accident because the insurance company said it was worthless because it was a diesel, and junked my truck, and my friends have farm trucks, that still get the old blends, farmers are exempt you know, and you can tell the difference, your just not looking.
I was reading the link you posted about how it will take 160000 miles to earn back the extra cost, but your comparing a one time production run to one of the worlds most successful production units, corolla? What is going to happen when every car maker has to have a 230mpg car to offer the public. if GM pulls it off and delivers, how long do you think they will have exclusive access to that market? Will the KIA models also sell for 40k, or 12ks
MY example was the VW diesel which beats the hell out of the Corolla. And the Volt doesn't get 230 mpg--- pay attention! It gets LESS than the VW at twice the cost-- without counting gasoline and battery replacement. Geeze you are blinded by the fantasy of 'free' energy. Dance with he one that brung you--- petroleum. Until she passes out, at least.
They sold sulphur free diesel as reducing asthma in urban areas--- how's that working out? If you want to lessen asthma in urban areas, make the lil fuckers run 3 miles a day. Or make them pick up rash on the interstate.
Seriously, the air is a little cleaner, maybe, and I'm OK with that, but they always go too far if someone isn't around to raise hell. That is my reason for being.
But selling diesels is just as hard as selling new products in the automotive world, people don't want them, so unless you are willing to mandate diesels for all, your never going to get large fleets of diesels cars...
And by the way, I am curious, what is the Volts true mileage according to you, and a link please so I can read more.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that people won't buy diesel cars since the new clean diesel cars that dominate sales in Europe have only been available here for a year and most won't be in showrooms until next year. VW's diesel sales are now over one third of their total in the US and growing after the first year. It remains to be seen at this point, but if you give people the option to drive a 50 mpg plus car that you can fit in or a 50 mpg plus shoebox that you have to plug in twice a day and costs more than twice as much (without counting the 3 grand per year which will go to battery replacement since the claimed life is 3 years and costs over 10 grand)--- which do you think they will buy? For the next decade, these gas hybrids will be nothing more than a boutique product for arrogant airheads who like to impress the other airheads with their concern for the planet exhibited by their mindless choice of car.
Actual Volt mileage? Lots of people asking that. I believe GM is fucking up big time with their 230 advertising because it is clearly a lie that even the EPA is backing away from. Folks are beginning to get irritated when their intelligence is being insulted and that is what they are doing with that idiotic ad showing an electric outlet and the numbers 230. The first 40 miles will use some of a gallon to maintain sufficient charge to keep the torque up unless you stay at walking speeds on a level road. After that, the 4 cyl kicks in. In smaller-midsize cars that motor gets around 40mpg--- but, with the extra weight of elec motors and batteries, that is going to drop. They are apparently basing their number on a 50 mile or so trip without recharge. So, the more you drive, the lower your mpg. I read a calculation yesterday (don't remember where) that said that if you actually drive the car 230 miles without stopping 4 hours to recharge someplace that would happen to have the high amp 240 outlet, the actual fuel usage will be in the range of 5 to 6 gallons-- gallons, or mid 40 mpg. GM isn't saying and the EPA hasn't figured out how to calculate it, either. GM lied about the EPA giving them that rating and you have to wonder why they don't give out easily determined values like gas tank size and range. What is the MPG after the battery charge is exhausted? How hard is it for them to give that info out? You can bet the EPA will contribute to the Government Motors scam, though. I'd like to hear how big the gas tank is and how far it will go without fillup or recharge. Regardless, the cost per mile is many times greater even if you assume that everything GM is saying is true and you ignore all the facts that should tell you they are lying. I will bet that in 3 years there will be no Volt unless the government increases the already insane subsidy for buyers and GM because it doesn't add up, even using their own figures.
So your saying you don't know, and you cant believe the published reports because the class with your religious beliefs. That's what I'm hearing.
An analysis by GM-Volt.com, an unofficial site that is not affiliated with G.M., runs the numbers this way: The E.P.A. city cycle is just over 11 miles, so the Volt would run 40 miles gas free, then go through an 11-mile cycle with the gas engine running in “charge-sustaining mode.” If we assume the Volt gets 50 miles a gallon in that mode (based on the number G.M. cited for its concept vehicle in 2007), then it would use .22 gallons of gas in 11 miles, the equivalent of 231.8 m.p.g.
Link
Here they say 50mpg in 07 numbers, seems to me that out of the box generators do better than that. Maybe GM should move aside and let Coleman have a shot.
Scoll down for pictures
If anyone is going on blind faith here, it's you. Will the Volt go 230 miles on one gallon? Sure, if you drive no more than 50 miles without a full recharge. I read multiple sources that says normal driving means that the gas engine will kick in some of the first 40 miles to provide boost in accelerating and will be on full time in the last 10 miles of the 40 at speeds over 35 mph. So, it will take you 2 or 3 days to go 230 mpg, but you could do it. Slow, short spurts with long waits in between--- if that's your thing, by all means piss your money away. Don't you think that is insultingly dishonest advertising? Don't you find it a little suspicious that GM won't answer questions like what is the MPG after the original charge is exhausted?
My point is that even if you buy the hype, it is highly cost inefficient. Extremely inconvenient. Is unlikely to even be as fuel efficient as many available conventional cars available in most cases other than short commutes. Provides no real benefit with emissions, claims of zero emission notwithstanding. In fact, it will actually produce MORE emissions. Exists only because of phony environmental concerns and its influence in government. If people want to buy this thing, let them pay the actual costs. It's just another scam that I, as a taxpayer, am making possible.
I think it's typical GM, they used too big a battery and too big of a generator because, the generator only runs at half load and the battery only charges up to 80%, and only discharges to 30%, so I am slowly coming to your side on this one, GM suck and they always will...but that bus still has potential,,10mpgs over the regular 4, that is a breakthrough.
Hey it's 1:30 in the morning, I had taken a Tylenol PM, and I'm half asleep, but I had to turn the computer back on. You forgot something, in our discussion above about the cost analysis, they said that you would have to drive a volt 166k miles to make up the difference in price with the gas savings. But you forgot something important, if we had a large fleet of cars and trucks that averaged 50mpg what would that do to the price of gas? What pressure would that put on that price, downward pressure, because it would create large gluts of gas in the distribution system. More gas on the market would make gas cheaper, maybe as much as half price, so not only would you have to compare 25 mpg corolla to a 50 mpg volt, you would have to add 1.50 per gallon to the volt side for that downward pressure.
Not to mention that it would give us the only advantage we can hope to have over OPEC that we can build, we could save more gas with 50 mpg cars and we could ever achieve with more drilling here in the US. The US is already the most drilled nation on the planet, and our production is dropping as we type here.
Take another Tylenol. If elec cars become common enough to drive down oil consumption (they won't) then it will make their purchase even more unattractive. If the current political trends continue (they won't), I can see a tax on gasoline or gasoline driven cars to make the purchase of elect more attractive through huge subsidies. In fact, we are already doing that in a less obvious way. But that will stop when the ability of the gov to borrow money disappears and people realize how stupid this country and its leadership has been over the last 3 decades. (which is happening). I really believe that the election of the O is the eventual death of liberalism and growth in government.
Known reserves of recoverable oil are INCREASING as we speak. That is partly due to new fields being discovered and new recovery methods coming online. 'Running out of oil is a lie' I have been hearing my whole life. We could be energy independent easily. Just open up fields. Go nuclear. Tap into natural gas for trucks. Develop coal gasification as supplies dictate, eventually. Ideally, we should let the market decide, but we agree that the oil market isn't a free market, so competitive alternatives are too risky when your competitor can raise and lower prices at will. I don't know how we change that short of war. Put a guaranteed floor on crude by taxing imported sources and the rest will follow naturally. It will take a shooting war or a trade war or both- The fact is, there is TOO MUCH oil elsewhere and rapidly developing countries that aren't afraid to use it-- or we could just slowly bleed to death pretending we can change the reality by chasing after wind and electric driven cars and do it in the name of 'saving the globe' while the rest of the globe laughs and reaps the benefits of even cheaper oil. The rest of world is reaching the point they can now live without us and they are eager to do so.
Known reserves of recoverable oil are INCREASING as we speak.
Very true, run out of oil, no. But we did run out of cheep oil, all those new deposits are hard to reach, expensive to reach and expensive to bring to market. How much oil has Brazil produced from it's new fields? 0 barrels, and they don't even have the necessary technology to produce that oil, only the US can currently do it. The Russian the Chinese dream of the day they can exploit the new deposits. So don't count your chickens yet.
Might seem strange but the oil we save with electric cars and their subsidies might still be cheaper than oil we drill in the new deposits. Someone would have to do a detailed study to see which one is really cheaper and faster to achieve
You seem to discount it but if you have a 4mpg double-decker that 25 gallons for every 100 miles.
At 10 mpg that's 10 gallons a savings of 15 gallons per 100 miles driven, multiply that by the number of busses on the road and you can how much we would save. And the fact is we have to replace the busses anyway, not like they last forever...
The newly discovered fields in Africa aren't that difficult to recover. Offshore Fl and CA aren't even close to being beyond profitable deposits. North slope, same thing. Iraq has no idea how much oil they have, still.
And if the difference in the cost of the buses is offset by the cost of the fuel saved--- they'll sell all they can build. But, just as in the case of the Volt, it isn't going to be close. Oil that remains may not be 'cheap', but it's still far cheaper than any alternative, except perhaps NG. They are using NG for buses around here and patting themselves on the back--- until earlier this year when they discovered the maintenance costs had wiped out all the fuel savings and more so they had to have a budget supplement to cover the ultra modern buses repairs and extra buses to fill in for those off line for repairs. The fact is, elec and other alternatives will never make economic sense unless the can come in at the equivalent of 70 dollars per barrel oil. That's the profit break point for coal gasification, and we have enough coal for a couple of centuries, at least.
equivalent of 70 dollars
Promises, promises.
Actually, most ssay the break point for coal gasification is 40 to 50 per barrel. The Air force did a limited research project that showed it would cost around 50 per barrel to produce jet fuel from coal if a full scale plant were built. All we need to do is guarantee imported oil won't go below that point, and energy independence is a done deal. Tarriffs or blow up some unfriendly oil producers..... or both. Maybe droping planeloads of enviroweenies from great heights on Saudi fields would go a long way, cuz they will never let it happen. Gotta save the polar bears, yaknow?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/us/14fuel.html?_r=1&ei=5065&en=55f3b2790c9df2c6&ex=1148270400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
I know. clear aluminum is a bigger story
The people that are growing it out of algae will bring actual product to the market way before that takes off.
I don't want to hear about the algae to diesel scam. I lost several thousands thinking that was going to be a viable alternative. Their 50 dollar profit point became 130 real quick once it came time to actually produce. But if you like it, I'll sell you some stock real cheap...
I saw this video and thought, 'MT was right and I was wrong!' I have got to get me a VOLT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvwTMZNWGuk&feature=player_embedded
And then I read this and thought, I told ya so! So all is well after all...
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/50047
Its not that I am against diesels, so I don't see how it is that your right, or how that video with dancing girls made me right about anything?
But if we increase the number of diesels on the road they would compete with over road trucks and agriculture equipment for the fuel...What if we combine the two, Hybrid diesels, we could most likely achieve 5 hours per gallon, that could be something like 450 miles per gallon....too bad our dear king the custodian will never allow it to happen.
How did you even find this old post?
It's this thing called Google. Fucking-war-volt and up it popped. A lot of other things probably popped up, too, but this was the first one.
I just thought the video was perfectly ridiculous, just like the car itself and I remembered how excited you were about the Volt a while back and we argued the subject---- I thought you would like to see the dancing car girls--or the guy, whatever floats yer boat.
Diesel can be refined from the same crude as gasoline, having enough won't be a problem once refineries make the adjustment. In fact, diesel is easier to refine and can be produced more easily from lower domestic grades of crude if we roll back the sulfur requirements which will happen when the mini Ice Age kicks in and we need that soot to help melt the ice. I read the other day that it appears that the melting arctic cap was due to soot deposited from high sulfur diesel-- now the ice pack is growing again,reflecting more sunlight, for better or worse.
Happy New Year to ya, by the way.
Damn google put us ahead of the porn? How did that happen?
Happy new year to you too
I don't know how easy it will be to retrofit refineries, supply or distribution of diesel, but if it were that easy they would have done it already.
What I don't understand is why you would be against cars that get hundreds of miles per gallon, as compared to cars that only get tens of miles per gallon?
"melting arctic cap was due to soot deposited from high sulfur diesel"
I think you just admitted to human activity affecting the climate...you must be drunk already, take it easy it's early in the day yet.
I haven't even started on the celebrating, yet. I'm trying to stay warm in one of the coldest early winters I can remember.
I don't know if there was anything to the soot story. That was just an attempt by some climate genius to explain why the arctic ice melt was reversing in the decade when temperatures were at all time highs (they weren't as just about everyone now knows). I would never deny that acid rain, or soot, etc. can effect the environment in a given area. That would be silly. But there is no evidence that human activity has a significant effect on the global climate patterns. None.
And refineries have plenty of capacity to keep up with diesel production. It's the same as gasoline, except with fewer steps. Demand for diesel is WAY down right now, anyway. If demand starts to exceed capacity, capacity will grow. Oil companies like to make money--- unless the govmint gets involved.
I'm sitting here in a t-shirt, but it has been cold at night and in the mornings
Have you ever heard of the north west passage, I think the Vikings were looking for it 1000 years ago, so many died trying to find it since. Yet this summer you could sail straight from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Or was that just my imagination? Something changed?
Why is the price so high?
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