Friday, January 27, 2006

what to do from here?

Is it just me? Or is this the stupidest thing this administration has ever done. This goes beyond any mistakes, this is a premeditated war crime. Am I wrong, or isn't there a Serbian general on trial right now for doing something like this?

What do we do, where do we go from here. Are we at the bottom, or is the next revelation going to be even worse.

I have never supported impeachment, but I don't know what else to think right now. Is there some other way, should congress censer, can they? what to do from here?

7 Comments:

Blogger B Will Derd said...

A little over the top, don't you think? It sounds like a poor decision among thousands of decisions being made in the most difficult circmustances, but outrageous? If it was thought the women knew the location of the their murdering husbands or where the bombs were hidden, why not detain them and why not invite their husbands to turn himself in and make the reason for their wives detention moot? Now if there is some evidence that those in charge decided to just take certain women captive without any reason to suspect they had any knowledge or particiapation in their husgbands activities, that was a stupid decision because of the repurcussions that would follow the inevitable misrepresentation of what took place, but outrageous? In Iraq? Who were these husbands--could they be some of the animals blowing up markets or lines of men waiting to join the iraq military? Did their wives know that and support it? Were they raped and murdered in front of their children as would be in the best traditions of the region? Were they otherwise mistreated in any other way beyond detention? In the midst of all the horrors that make Iraq the current anus of the universe, these two known incidents, which could just as easily be viewed in a very different lite, has you ready to impeach the president--though you have absolutely no reason to think had any knowledge of the two incidents or had any part in the decision making that went into it. Huh?

10:54 AM  
Blogger madtom said...

Well you have to take these two known cases with the resent release of 5 women. You think the two are connected? If we know of two, and suspect another five all in the past week, this tells me that there are probably many more.

Sense when are the wives and children responsible for their husband/fathers acts?

I can tell you one thing, this is a dream come true for the terrorist propaganda campaign, I talk of impeachment for the utter stupidity of these actions, not to mention their illegality, its against the GC, it's against US Law. I mean if you think this is such a great idea, why not expand it a little, why not detain the entire family and extended clan, you know like we are accusing saddam of doing.

Were they raped and murdered in front of their children as would be in the best traditions of the region? Were they otherwise mistreated in any other way beyond detention?

Which is why everyone will be ready to believe that they were, why allegations of such behavior will sweep across the region like wildfire, why no amount of denial will satisfy the masses. The women will likely be killed in honor killings anyway, making any defense mute.

though you have absolutely no reason to think had any knowledge of the two incidents or had any part in the decision making that went into it.

So the CIC should not be implicated in a way in the crimes of those under his command, but the wives, sisters, and children of suspects should.

12:08 PM  
Blogger B Will Derd said...

Why would you exclude wives and sisters from the effort? I thought you were a big supporter of women in war?

This is speculation run rampant being driven by an agenda--I saw only one thing that indirectly indicated the women (actually, just one) were innocent of either being participants or having valuable knowledge about their husband's murderous employment--the author of the memo who said that although he agreed with he detainment of other family members found in the residence, in his sole opinion he did not think the wife should have been taken---other than that, what have you got saying it was unjustified? Everything else--basically accusing US forces of abducting the wives of terrorists and holding them hostage, is plain hysteria and agenda driven speculation. Against US law? Not that this is really applicable, but if you are conducting criminal activitiy and law enfocement goes to your house and finds evidence that would indicate that your wife (or life partner) has information about, or has particiapted in those activities or your whereabouts, they are probably going to take her/him/it in for questioning. Might even use her as leverage to encourage your surrender, provide evidence or cut a deal. I'm no lawyer, but I watch Law and Order sometimes.

That this will add to some rampant instatiable rumor mill about the abuses and motives of US soldiers--that horse left the barn a long time ago and is never going to come back. Even the most reasonable and sophisticated Arabs that I have read, with a few notable exceptions, seem ready to believe anything that portrays themselves as helpless victims of barbaric US imperialism and Zionism. Trying to appeal to their reason is pointless, they revel in the emotinons of their victimhood and helplessness and can't see the world in any other way. They believe far worse things already. We 'mistreated' a handful of their women? They hold their own women as hostages as a way of life--I really don't give a damn what they think about our treatment of them, they think we are infidels and that isn't going to change. They don't want any responsibility for the world around them, they just want to have their helplessness confirmed so they can roll around in it, pausing only long enough to blow someone/something up(Hamas)to show how proud they are or so they can conduct far worse acts without impunity. Such incidents only feed what is already there, not that it needs feeding. This is trivial BS along the road to where it is all headed, nothing more.

3:12 PM  
Blogger madtom said...

Why would you exclude wives and sisters from the effort?

Because they were kidnapped for the sole propose of pressuring their husbands to surrender, or at least that's what I took from the memo, "leave a note on the door", kidnappers leave ransom notes. Had the women been arrested for complicity in some terrorist activity, they would not have left a note offering an exchange.
How can anyone justify this outrageous abuse of power, these were by definition civilians

That this will add to some rampant instatiable rumor mill about the abuses and motives of US soldiers--that horse left the barn a long time ago and is never going to come back.

But these illegal acts only serve to feed the hysteria, they add fuel to the fire. I don't see the up side, what I see is and ever increasing insurgency, now we know one very good reason for that. If I was your average Iraqi trying to stay on the sidelines, and this happened to my sister or aunt, or even a friend of a fiend, of a friend, I would consider joining the insurgency, I would consider it very seriously.

I think your throwing in the I thought you were a big supporter of women in war? is a great big red herring, who's only propose is to distract from the issues at hand.

4:30 PM  
Blogger B Will Derd said...

I think you bringing up the Impeachment subject was a bigger red herring than my big red herring. And like somebody said--it IS a blog, right?

I had a brilliant, well thought and compelling response, but this comment utility ate it. Maybe you were posting military gay porn links at the time. When I came back here I saw the counter column post you put up and it is pretty much in line with what I was thinking, though it probably goes a little further than I would.

I do remain amazed at the hysteria these memos have produced among some. There is NOTHING in them to indicate that the soldiers went out and executed a plan to 'kidnap' innocent wives of known terrorists and to hold them for 'ransom'. It appears that all involved in the process, with the exception of the lone author of the memo reporting the incident, thought the detentions were justified. Even the complaining author of the memo thought detaining other family members at the residence was justified. He is probably a soft hearted guy, maybe has a baby at home himself and didn't want to take part in removing a nursing mother from her baby---I can relate, but I doubt the others involved are that callous, so they must have thought they had a compelling reason to go ahead and detain her. Her husband, and probably his sweet, innocent wife, are trying to make sure some Americans who have babies at home never get to go back--some of them are mothers. So that might temper their concern for her. I know it tempers my concern for her quite a bit.

I admit I always give the benefit of the doubt to US soldiers unless there are substantial facts to lead me to think otherwise. I think they deserve it, and from some experience with many of them and hearing them tell of their own experiences, I think that by and large, they have more integrity and stronger values than most of us walking around free to pass judgement.

If those in Iraq are persuaded to join the insurgency and think that they will refrain from such 'heinous' acts as this after the coalition leaves--then they have been persuaded by other things long before this, true or not, and need to be dealt with. Compared to things that TT and others preach as gospel, this is child's play. And will be forgotten or remembered as silly before it is over. This handwringing is a luxury we may not be able to afford much longer. My sense is that people are beginning to realize we are at war with radical Islam, which includes mor of them than we thought, and we can no more reason with or placate them than we could Hitler.

5:52 PM  
Blogger madtom said...

I had a brilliant, well thought and compelling response, but this comment utility ate it.

I always compose my comments in the new message editor of my e-mail program, then I copy and past to blogger. That way if blogger eats it I still have it in the other window.

Maybe you were posting military gay porn links at the time.

I did no such thing, anonymous posted the link. Anyway why do news stories about websites never carry the link?

When I came back here I saw the counter column post you put up and it is pretty much in line with what I was thinking, though it probably goes a little further than I would.

He seems to think it's a great idea, I don't and the feed back I've gotten from my Iraqi friends seems to be in line with my thinking.

There is NOTHING in them to indicate that the soldiers went out and executed a plan to 'kidnap' innocent wives of known terrorists and to hold them for 'ransom'

Not even the note left on the door? what was the note for, do they always leave a note on the door when the arrest someone. Do they leave notes when they arrest the males?

I admit I always give the benefit of the doubt to US soldiers

So do I, I don't blame the troops for following orders, I blame the fool giving stupid orders, i.e. the president, that's why I bring up "impeachment", and not court marital.

This handwringing is a luxury we may not be able to afford much longer. My sense is that people are beginning to realize we are at war with radical Islam, which includes mor of them than we thought, and we can no more reason with or placate them than we could Hitler.

At no point did I have I advocated "reason with or placate them" as a tactic in this war. All I have said is that we are the US and we should fight on our terms, and not lower our standards to match the enemy's. that is a sure recipe for disaster.

6:32 PM  
Blogger B Will Derd said...

Not even the note left on the door? what was the note for, do they always leave a note on the door when the arrest someone. Do they leave notes when they arrest the males?


Did you even read the memo or are you going off the highly speculative article concerning the memos? The memos seem to be someone seeking some direction on what to do with women they had in custody already and who were giving increasing reasons to think they had good intel to give. They wanted to pass them along to police, probably thinking they would have better ways available to get the info, but the police wouldn't take them. The last memo was a response indicating they were still looking for the husband, which would solve the problem if he were available for interrogation--how about posting a note asking him to come get his wife or something similar?--what you seem to be saying is that they took her and left a note on the door. That isn't what happened, though you might think that from reading the article. In fact, there is nothing there that says it was done at any time, not that it would bother me if they did.
The blame bush thing is still silly--if we blamed wartime presidents with crimes committed by troops in the field, we wouldn't have nearly as many monuments in DC.

12:28 AM  

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